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The Global Ecomomey And Is There A Need To Save Banks, Or To Put It Another Way Do We Need To Give A Squalk


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#27 Ancient Brit

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 04:36 PM

The big question is how are the big Corporations to be controlled? Having made that decision we must then ask who should implement that control and of course we must then bite our own tail and consider whether or no we need to control those who control the big Corporations. We could go back to post one and ask could big Corporations manage without banks.
In my youth my savings were in post office national savings and I didn't have a bank account until I was 22 years old and achieved a position at my place of work where my salary was paid monthly and had to be made directly to the bank.
There was a time when the government and local authorities loaned money direct to the individual in particular with regard to the purchase of property.


#28 Mr. Dreadful

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:29 PM

The problem with controlling big businesses is that if they don't like it they can just up sticks and move to another country.
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Avon: It is your assumption that we are entitled to it as well that is irritating.
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#29 Quotes Elderberry

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:45 AM



This is what we call (jargon alert) a 'Bourgeois Liberal Critique' of Capitalism.  Inherent in the idea is the notion that everything would be peachy if only everyone were...a bit nicer.  Well, it hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath.  It is in the nature of a successful bank that it is run by Gits.  If they weren't Gits, they would be outcompeted by those banks who were run by Gits and would go under.  How many toothless alligators to you imagine get to pass their genes on?

Which brings me to bankers bonuses.  Look - banks don't bay shiteloads of money to their employees out of niceness.  Obscenely large bonuses are part of their competitive edge.  We shouldn't object to them unless we also object to banking as a whole...and by implication to Capitalism of which they are an indivisible and inescapable part.


Arguably*, bankers would be happier if they didn't 'earn' so much. Studies suggest that beyond a certain level, added riches do not make people any happier, and there's even a case to be made that it could make them unhappier, in that poverty gaps aren't good for any members of society. If that line of reasoning is followed, then perhaps we should offer counselling to the greediest people, for their own good as well as everyone else's. Pity the greedy bankers, try to understand what the psychological hole is they're trying to fill with cash, and make them aware of a better way to live. Perhaps.

*Although for all I know, being megarich is an absolute blast, and the sociologists who supply reports which suggest otherwise,are hopelessly biased. The trouble is, there don't seem to be that many right-wing sociologists out there to redress the balance.

#30 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:08 AM

In fairness Elderberry...while some sociologists may or may not be biased...the work you're referring to is probably that by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett. They're not sociologists but epidemiologists. If they're biased they do a grand job of masking it under a an absolute avalanche or verifiable data.

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#31 pal

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:42 AM

The problem with controlling big businesses is that if they don't like it they can just up sticks and move to another country.

Ahhh, what are we to do; I cannot go to Poland to do my shopping, how am I going to get my post if the postman is in China, and how am I going to get my TRILLION dollars out of the bank if they move to ICELAND. Eeeeeeek

Looks like capitalism died to me, and is now a zombie run by 1%; in fact all the conspiracy theories make sense if you replace respectable retail bank manager with bankster, they are the world order, they pull all the strings.

Did they say they need to have 75 billion to pay the bonus, devalue the pound and increase inflation. Eeeeeeeeek

#32 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:30 PM

However...to leap to the defence of Capitalism once more...it's not quite as simple as that. There are arguably benefits to all of us from saving banks.

To take an example...the Eurozone crisis. The culturally hegemonic way of looking at it is that Eurozone taxpayers are having to bail out those lazy, profligate Greeks. If I were a Greek hearing that I'd be tempted to run out on the streets, turn over a car and set it alight. (what's that you say? they are doing that? well fancy that!) The reality is that European taxpayers aren't giving money to their fellow Greek Eurocitizens, but to Greece's creditors in various European banks. Now, granted, the Greek state knew more about the parlous state of their economy than they let on, but the European Central Bank knew a fair amount but was encouraged, for political reasons to gloss over Greece's unsuitability to join the Euro. Why? Because it was felt convenient to allow Greece a credit line to import goods from the rest of Europe. So the big winners were European Banks and Industry. And workers.

And this was good. Jobs and money all round. Admittedly more of that money tends to accumulate at the top end (cf David Ricardo's 'Theory of Rents' But still - everyone gets a piece of the action.

Until, that is, it all goes horribly wrong. 'Capitalism lurches from crisis to crisis' The effects of the global debt crisis are stil being manifest in the discovery that, for certain economies, the line of credit has dried up. They are no longer able to pay back their borrowings (necessary borrowings! they were financing jobs elsewhere) with with more borrowings. Yet the banks need their money back in order to extend more credit to others to finance more jobs. So where will they get it from? Taxpayers. Whether in the Eurozone or the European fringes, all we're doing is paying back those nice banks for the good times they've given us in the past.

But all this is as it should be! If we approve of an economic system within which entrepreneurs create jobs by borrowing money, we should have no qualms whatsoever. Everything is working exactly as it should and all is for the best in this the best of all possible worlds.

Well, OK. the extent to which one feels this way maybe depends on whether one is a winner or a loser - but that's a moral question rather than an economic one. However...if it's a moral question, our whole economic system is so interdependent and intertwined that it's futile to point the finger at individual immoral acts or immoral people. Did we no all know how our smartphones got into our pockets?

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#33 Ancient Brit

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:30 PM

Always remember the world is your oyster. You can always look for a job in finance.
The days are gone when boys wanted to be an engine driver and girls a nurse.
What are todays ambitions ? .Would you put your kids into banking ?

#34 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:34 PM

Would you put your kids into banking ?


Well it's a damn site warmer than standing on a street corner in a short skirt.

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#35 Ancient Brit

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:09 PM

Hopefully capitalism and associated services will manage to stay afloat. Whoever holds the purse strings has a lot to do. Communication in the financial world is fast and furious, little wonder a bob or two goes astray and fortunes are won and lost.
Thirty years ago todays situation would have been catastrophic.
Money is a means to an end and has to be distributed, but does anyone know the true value of money at any moment in time.
Add value to your life, give a fair days work in return for a fair days work and live with your conscience. Everything in the world is free but to exploit it requires organisation and organisation costs money.

#36 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:28 PM

But there's a conundrum here, surely?

It is in the interests of those who provide or finance the work to try to extract a fair day's work from one for less than a fair day's pay. That's nothing personal. It's just business.

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#37 Ancient Brit

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 02:53 PM

Of course there is a conundrum. Life's a conundrum.
Trying < to extract a fair day's work from one for less than a fair day's pay > is a conundrum in itself and one that should be solved on a one to one basis. How do you control the big organisations serving the workers that serve the businesses ?
Who are 'the' bankers and who supports them in their hour of need ?





#38 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 04:08 PM

On a one-to-one basis? But what if people got all lairy and decided it was more effective to get together and exercise their collective muscle? Lawks a mercy! What a to-do there'd be.

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#39 Ancient Brit

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:41 PM

Q.E.D we've arrived. So there's going to be a 'to-do' created by 'lairy' people.
Who is in control of these 'lairy' people ? Who will exploit them and who will suffer as a result of their action. How much of the 'bankers' money do they want and having got it is it's value enhanced ?
The 'to-do' is mainly about pensions, their pensions. They can't win when they aim at a moving target. Someone will balance the 'books' . What was said earlier "That's business". More importantly "That's Life' and bankers and those who 'make' money are all part of it.

#40 Rev Jackruss

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

I think that bankers should have to wear a rather large shoes, you know the ones that clowns wear! as so we can spot them

#41 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:25 AM

AB:

So a question back at you. Who has a right to control the people? Is it the job of specific people to balance the books? To determine who gets what? How are these people to be chosen?

(This isn't a loaded question, I promise. More a Socratic one.)

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#42 Ancient Brit

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:49 AM

That's four questions you have bounced back 'Two Names'. :S27:
Answers in order.
1 - The one who claims the 'right' to buy.
2 - The books are balanced by all involved. 'You reap what you sow'
3 - Who gets what is a lottery.
4 - Lord only knows.
Generally speaking 'bankers' are involved in all 4.
He who holds the money holds the power. Money talks. etc etc.
PS - Do you think your user name will survive the switch or will it become 'Three Names' :G12:

#43 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:57 AM

OK. But are you assuming that the way things are are how they have to be? For example...do there even have to be books and do have to be balanced? If so - you might be right - but how do you know that you're not simply going with a common assumption?


(I'm hoping I'll keep this name, btw - although it may be complicated by its being identical to the original hootoo name that I wasn't able to log in with)

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#44 Ancient Brit

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:06 PM

The monkey doesn't look too optimistic, Ed it will be if you carry it off.
In the mean time Two Names. Records have to be kept and it is just as important to honour IOU's as it is to clear gambling debts.
The 'bankers' do their best to balance the financial debt but like most conundrums a solution is hard to find. It would help if those in debt wore 'big clown like shoes'. Could be 'red' with the bankers 'black'. Eh Rev ?
There are so many who benefit through the concern of others. Claiming their 'rights' yet failing to honour their 'obligations'
I have no problem with change, Fortunately throughout my life I have been able to keep up in areas that were important to me. Some of the changes came easy, others required time and effort to accommodate.

#45 amber leaf

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 12:05 AM

What concerns me is that £75bn has been given to the banks in the hope they'll release it into the economy

If they gave that to the people then they would ether save it or spend it. 1. If some spent it, Then more things would have to be made to replace them, keeping more people in work. 2. If some save it, then there would be more money to banks to lend.

Do away with the middleman the bank bonus.

If banks sink my bank card won't work. [No ones cash paided anymore] means no food,

Will have to steal it, So will everyone eles and where would we be.

Edited by amber leaf, 18 October 2011 - 12:10 AM.


#46 pal

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:17 AM

I was offered a course in foreign exchange bankstering yesterday, look at the tax I would pay :)



Under current tax laws in the UK all profits are 100% exempt of tax, and there are no commissions or fees






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