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What Do You Say About Editing Posts?

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#53 Mrs Zen

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:10 PM

I don't know who is doing all the work right now so I don't know who knows what.


Even as I type, the volunteer pages are being updated with the list of volunteers; so it should be clear who's a volunteer and who isn't. It may take us a while to list the Foundation and Admin volunteers, but that's because (a) most people don't care and (b) we'd rather go live sooner with the odd page that needs updating than wait for the whole thing to be perfect. By which time it would be out of date. If you want to know (a) who volunteers for a particular group or (b) if a person is a volunteer in any role, all you will have to do is ask.

(A little simulposting there, thank you Mrs Z that's welcome information)


Any time. Actually, make that, any time I am online and have time. But you know what I mean.

So can you or anyone else "In The Know" for h2g2 tell us what the known moderation stuff is? Surely this can be discussed amongst all of us? The logistics. The how-it-all-works. The Failsafes. What are the failsafes?


I'm not sure what you are asking here. Yes, moderation has been discussed since the day we got back after Rupert in April 2001. And discussed. And discussed. And discussed.

When it became clear it could be "real", I started a discussion on h2g2, either on askh2g2 or in Magrathea's Workshop where we were banished after being accused of spamming. I think kea started at least one thread as well.

So, yes, it's been discussed. If you missed those discussions, (and I don't recognise your name), then I can only say "sorry", but as you'd expect with a topic so thoroughly gone over, most points that anyone made were also made several times by other people. You may have missed reading them, but it's a bit like what they say about sex, everything you can think of has been done millions of times already; everything anyone says about moderation has been said scores or hundreds of times in those threads already.

Additionally, the volunteer mods (who will be known and named any day now (see above),), have also been discussing moderation from all sides. Don't forget we are all members of the site; some of us remember the site from before there were mods, some have been BBC mods, some have modded in other communities. We vary from people like me who used to trip the filther on an almost weekly basis (I'm very sweary) to people who have never been modded in all their time on h2g2. So we discussed what we'd like, what was fair, what was reasonable, what was in the tradition of h2g2, and what was practical.

The logistics. The how-it-all-works.


Exactly the same as oldhootoo - we've got the same systems and tools. We've not been able to update the software in any way.


The Failsafes. What are the failsafes?


Interesting question. We were, are and always will be concerned for the safety of the Mods. Like all the Volunteers they put their heads above the parapet. But people can get edgy and paranoid about moderation in a way that they don't about the Artists, say. So although the list of Mods will be known on site, it will never be known who made a specific decision about moderation. If anyone stalks, attacks or persecutes a mod, then that will be treated as a severe breach of the House Rules. A bit like those posters on trains, the Mods don't volunteer to be abused.

Hope this helps explain things a bit more.

Ben

(Edited for typo)

Edited by Mrs Zen, 13 October 2011 - 11:12 PM.

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#54 Mrs Zen

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:15 PM

Oh, one other thing.

The Mods do their work at the behest of Not Panicking Ltd, so their authority comes direct from Robbie, Brian and Aly. They are looked after and helped out by the Community Eds, and if a problem is too knotty for the Community Eds then they can take it to Aly Larholm for advice or even a decision. Aly's decisions are final. She, alongside Brian, is one of the new owners of h2g2, and she, alongside Brian, has well over 10 years of looking after multinational web communities.
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#55 Effers

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:29 PM

I said come hell or high water I wouldn't post here. But I'm an inveterate rule breaking iconoclast. The last word being significant in terms of my deep and enduring dislike for avatars. I get good pictures in my mind from a name and the sort of posts people make. It's like reading a book. Who wants poxy avatars? like the rest of the net do? We're a cut above and a literary/word culture. (anyone been watching the Stephen Fry series on language and words? Christ I love that man..and he's never afraid to talk about how much emotion and feelings mean to him..but that's a fairly irrelevant by the by.) No. 3 was all about swearing and its importance..best one for me..it's on iPlayer.

Oh where was I?

Absolutely no edit button for me. It gives people like jwf endless fun to create funnies from typos. Also it shows you whether someone is in a rush to post..or very patient and slow..like me ;-)

#56 Mrs Zen

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:40 PM

Effers!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seeing you here has put a smile on my face. How's that SAS tunnel? How's the cat? How are you?

And dragging this back on topic, Plato, I am sorry, I missed this. You'd think I could scroll by now. <rolleyes>

I think it's never too late to be concerned about any possible problem.


Well, we must cut our coat to suit our cloth. We do not have the money for an alternative.

On the other hand, Aly and Brian, have over a decade experience of running communities with 4,000,000 - 15,000,000 users with volunteer mods. Approximately 10 years more than the BBC had when they took us on, and as much as the BBC had when they decided to sell us. We are not led or run by amateurs.

On top of which, the site has a long and noble history of former researchers crossing over to become Community Editors, with Peta, Abi and latterly Mina all making that particular move.

We are where we are. We are short on money, but long experience both from Brian and Aly and within the volunteer teams. We do listen, (this thread, discussing the pros and cons of an edit button demonstrates that, I hope).

Ultimately how the site is run is up to Not Panicking Ltd, and I defy any researcher, no matter how dedicated, how long-term, or how committed to the site, to claim they are ahead of Robbie Stamp in the queue of people who have the site's best interests at heart.

Edited for another bloody typo. Past my bedtime on a school night.

Edited by Mrs Zen, 13 October 2011 - 11:42 PM.

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#57 Effers

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:52 PM

<snork> That SAS tunnel is cursed. The guys and pegs I ordered got lost in the post..they are sending some more. I'm planning to start on Halloween. The eve of All Hallows..also the Celtic New year..when two worlds come together..the living and the dead.. (people on the Dawkins thread are starting to worry about me..;-) ) The cat regularly comes into my bedroom in the morning to wake me up for her pre-breakfast.

#58 kea

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:53 PM

>>>
Kea, I don't see how the "we'll lose something" argument is that useful if you don't know what we'll lose because, well, we might not. I use fora which have just as good standards of writing and debate as Hootoo but also have unlimited editing because, get this, most people don't use it unless they need to.

I really like the idea of having a limited editing function, so we can correct those mistakes which make us cringe (I actually, physically, blush when I mix up "your" and "you're" online. It might seem silly but it genuinely makes me uncomfortable), or get rid of those posts we immediately regret instead of having to wait for someone to come and rip us to shreds over it (which has happened to me more than once).
<<<

All change involves losses and gains Mr D. I can have a pretty good guess at what we would lose, while acknowledging there will be things (good and bad and indeifferent) that will change that we can't forsee.

I actually find noesify extremely un-user friendly, unweildy and clunky, so I'm holding back quite a lot in this conversation (interestingly I have to sit and watch for ages while each page loads and some of that at least is because of all the googletwitface links that appear to need time before I can read or write).

As for being resistant to change, the Luddites were right of course. They weren't conservatives who couldn't cope with change, they were people who saw the negative impacts on their communities and tried to do something about it. Some things are worth resisting.

At the moment I don't consider cringe avoidance (yes, I do that with errant apostrophes too) to outweigh the value of having to consider our words before we hit post. I also happen to think our mistakes have value in terms of relationship and community.

The argument that we're all adults and should be trusted is interesting. I'm thinking now of all the boundary pushing that's gone on over the years, and esp in the past few months, where people have decided that they didn't like whatever and so used the structure and function of h2 to test certain things (self included). I can't see how an edit function wouldn't get used in similar ways.

*
Sorry, I haven't been able to read all of the backlog, noesify really is appallingly clunky today at this end.

#59 psychocandy

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:54 PM

I have to say, having been a member of another online community where it's a usable function, that I like the "edit" button. At the site I formerly administered with a friend (he took it offline when RL got too busy), posters could edit a post within 5 seconds without any "edit" note appearing in the post. After 5 seconds, if the poster or a mod or admin edited the post, they had to select a reason from a drop-down menu. Once someone had replied only a mod or ed could edit, and then, anonymously but with a reason posted from the drop-down menu. I rather liked that system. I could get my typos or knee-jerk comments off the record immediately, but not have to worry about other people saying hateful stuff and then removing later so they could say "Whatever do you mean? I didn't say anything like that at all. The people who replied are clearly mental/ oversensitive/whatever.".

#60 kea

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:01 AM

PC, is that 5 secs to post? Or 5 seconds to open a text box to edit in? I know one of my forums I could open an edit box and leave it open and then post an edited version half a day later if I wanted to.

The thing about comparing h2 to other sites is that it is fairly unique. There are quite specific functions that enable a certain kind of community that I've not seen anywwhere else (but am open to examples). Because of those functions, we can interact and relate in ways that simply aren't possible in other places. In other places there are limits that h2 doesn't have (mostly I think of it in terms of forums being quite linear and h2 being multidimensional). Even FB which is more multidimensional doesn't come close to what h2 has in terms of functions that enable community.

If we change that function-created community by adding in more functions, I think we need to do so consciously, with good clarity about the pros and cons. I'm not seeing some of the concerns I've raised particularly well addressed yet and am not sure if I am even being that well understood. I'm sure that's true for others too.

#61 psychocandy

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:11 AM

5 secs to open a box and edit, kea. Sorry for not being too clear.

If there is a concern you specifically raised and I missed, please clarify? (Same for everyone else!) I really to try, even if I disagree with a point, to at least offer a response. Please clarify?

#62 Mrs Zen

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:13 AM

Even FB which is more multidimensional doesn't come close to what h2 has in terms of functions that enable community.


kea, that comment is really interesting. What sort of things do you mean?
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#63 Effers

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:42 AM

Why do people want us to be like every other ten a dime site on the web? Avatars and edit buttons. 'Like' buttons..and christ knows what else buttons.

We can't compete if we blandisise ourselves like all the rest.

Lets stick out like a sore thumb. Some pretty disenchanted people with all that bland sameness out there might want to join us. It's brand thing. Like those who drink Guiness or have Macs ;-) and the rest..

We might get some interesting people if we brand ourselves right. I believe capitalists call it a gap in the market.

#64 Effers

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:25 AM

I really like my new avatar. But it looked more Noesis in photoshop. When it came here it went a bit brick orangey.

#65 Effers

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:21 AM

I can't work out how to leave a message on someone's space. To be blunt I couldn't imagine a site for a community of people more poorly designed than this. There is zero opportunity for creativity with one's ps. You fill in forms..and then get super creative with your avatar. This will influence the people coming here.

They won't be fussy about such things..like we herd of cats.

Christ this window for posting couldn't be much smaller.

Seriously if we want to keep the h2g2 culture..we have to dare to be different. That's what will keep h2g2 h2g2.

Jesus could imagine a weirdo like me with 2 good degrees..planning to spend the winter in an SAS tunnel in their back garden, fitting in any where else?

We need to attract the eccentric and interesting. Blanding won't do it.

What the hell difference does it matter not to edit? The plusses far outweigh the very minor negatives. I keeps things fresh, alive and real.

Humans make *mistakes* it's good for a community to accept that..rather than a lot of pedentry

**

<offtopic>

You asked how I was Mrs Zen. The vodka has now worn off..and in terms of my emotions to do with h2g2,..couldn't be much worse. But Mags is helping no end..I can put on a good front with the best of them here though.

I shall try not to post on *this* place again.

#66 Mrs Zen

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:44 AM

I do like your avatar Effers. You aren't the only one to find the forums here at Noesis different from h2g2. It will be interesting to see what features here people miss when we move back to h2g2.

Speaking for myself, and myself alone, I will miss avatars, the ability to Edit posts, (heh heh), seeing how many times someone has posted, seeing how many times something's been read, the ability to add pictures and videos to posts, and the Munch, Facepalm and aubegine smileys. I will be glad to be free of the autofilther, the Forced Initial Capitals In Topics, and the pinkness.
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#67 Mr. Dreadful

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:13 AM

Hallo Effers!

The problem with forums like this is that they're designed for sterile, on-topic discussion. Not flowing conversations like what we have on Hootoo.
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#68 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:13 AM

I had a rule that I wouldn't eat any chocolate yesterday. I ate some. What an edgy iconoclast I am.

Ook!


#69 deborahb342

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:13 AM

I've used the edit function a couple of times here to edit typos - but only because perview is my friend and my friend is missing here. In general I'm against the edit facility. I like h2g2 specifically because it's not like all those other forums out there.

However, I do like the "like" button. I haven't used it yet but I like the option of basically saying "I have nothing to add to this discussion but I agree with what you said".

Effers, I'm watching the Stephen Fry series too, it's excellent. I loved what they showed with the iced water test.

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#70 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:29 AM

Here's how teh interwebs seems to work.

It's an 'evolutionary space' in which the various sites try out various bits of functionality, widgets and gimmicks. The useful ones catch on so that we find that everyone converges on things like editing, like buttons, autoquote. It's no surprise that they all converge because they're doing more-or-less the same thing. (The exception is when they operate in an ossified environment, such as the BBC).

'But hang on a minute,' you might say, 'Hootoo is different.' Welll...not that different, in my opinion. But let's allow that there are Researchers who want to preserve features such as ebbing-and-flowing conversations and preserving integrity. However...all the other sites will have struggled with precisely with these same issues but the collective wisdom has generally been found to be that the benefits of certain features outweigh their disadvantages. Natural Selection involves tradeoffs.

In short...I'm sceptical that Hootoo is wildly different to all the other ~It won't let me say G*dd*mn?!!~ forums and social media sites on teh interwebs. Convergence is probably A Good Thing. Go with the flow. Don't try to uninvent the wheel.

Edited by Edward the Bonobo, 14 October 2011 - 08:33 AM.

Ook!


#71 Vip

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:30 AM

Stuff that we were given (once we squished some fairly hefty bugs):

- how to complain about a post
- how to view the queue of complaints
- how to make decisions about complaints

Stuff that we had to do ourselves:

- decide and set up how to keep records of all the decisions we will make
- determe the reponsibilites of each level of moderator
- a referral system up through the levels to the Community Editors for complex cases
- an ongoing review to make sure that the system is working once we actually go live, not just leave it 'as-is' and assume everything will be fine

I hope this puts your mind at rest. We may not get it right from day one but we *will* get it right over time - we won't rest until it is.

We have an interesting mix of volunteers from the inexperienced through to those who have been long-term moderators on one or several other sites. We also have the invaluable input of Aly and Brian who own and run not only this forum but Noesis Chat (now Lycos Chat), which has hundreds of moderators and thousands of users across the globe.
However, one thing all our volunteers have in common is a long-term experience of h2g2 and the damage that poor moderation has done, and that's something we will work hard to remedy.

And, at the end of the day, *even under BBC rules* less than 1% of posts were ever complained about. Long may this continue!
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#72 Mr. Dreadful

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:31 AM

<applause> Edward, if we ever meet I am buying you a pint.
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#73 swl

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:31 AM

I'm not an edgy iconoclast but my cat has a cut covered by an edge o' elastoplast. Does that make his views more valid?

#74 Vip

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:36 AM

Uh.. sorry for dumping my post in the middle of a conversation that had moved on. I was replying to a much earlier post and missed the backlog. *fail*
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#75 Mr. Dreadful

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:42 AM

Even with all this new fangled tech, it's still possible to do a Post 21. <rofl>
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#76 Edward the Bonobo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:53 AM

Tell you what I really like...Rich Text. No more having to emphasise *like this* I promise to use it sensible - bold and italics only - and I will never inflict Comic Sans on you.

And even more I like URLs hyperlinked to text. Like that one - which you just know you want to click. (SFW). This is especially useful because having to post full URLs disrupts the flow of the text. It's what that Mr Berners-Lee meant us to do in the first place.

Fancy that. Just like most of the rest of teh interwebs, eh? Well - apart from Facebook.

Ook!


#77 Mr. Dreadful

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:07 AM

And it doesn't even have to be full on all bells and whistles rich text. Just a bit of formatting and proper text hyperlinks. That'd be grand.

I remember suggesting such a thing when I first joined Hootoo and got so soundly put down I never bothered again!
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#78 Lanzababy

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:52 AM

Yeah, I admit to loving the rich text too. For a long while I played around by writing everything in a font and colour of my choosing - ( this one) but as there is no facility to save as a favourite, I gave up. But I did like personalising things.
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